About Dana DiTomaso
Dana is President & Partner at Kick Point, where she applies marketing into strategies to grow clients’ businesses, in particular, to ensure that digital and traditional play well together. With her deep experience in digital, Dana can separate real solutions from wastes of time (and budget).
Dana was born in a steel mill but overcame these humble beginnings to move to Edmonton in 2010. In her spare time, Dana is the past-president of the Advertising Club of Edmonton, co-leads Ladies Learning Code Edmonton and is the weekly technology columnist on CBC Edmonton AM. She also enjoys drinking beer and yelling at the Hamilton Tiger-Cats.
- Begin the development of your personas by identifying some of your best customers; once you have them, ask questions which give would you a tacit understanding of who they are, and not just their demographic info.
- Consider this common template when creating a persona – ‘I am a (blank), who wants to (blank), so I can (blank)’.
- Personas should be simple enough to make sense to anyone. You shouldn’t treat them as just faceless ‘users’, but rather real people who you’re trying to connect with.
- Buzzfeed uses just two personas, so don’t feel you need to create a long list which can’t be realistically managed. It’s best to stick to less than 5.
Hello. It's true, it's my first time over here and what I've discovered is that people in Ireland are basically like Canadians, but with funny accents.
So it's very similar, extra polite. All right. So today I'm going to be talking about personas and really what is a persona? It's a collection of attributes that uniquely defines a specific segment of your market. So who here has written personas before? Okay, so you're all going to do that after this. Personas for us is one of the fundamental pieces of our marketing process at Kick Point so I hope you all embrace it after this.
Really a persona is more than just here's this woman Maria and she really likes hats and she owns a dog, you know, or here's Herman who'll soon will be investing in the Hair Club for men, right? These are specific people that have more than just one interest. Everyone is complex and everyone has multiple things that they like and what they don't like and so it's more than just thinking about it and seeing a picture and saying, "Okay, I think this person likes this," but actually building a profile of that person.
And it's also not a time for creativity. It's not a time for you to come up with character for your next great novel or for people who sit near Herman and say, "Oh, hey my buddy Gord is a big fan of our products so let's write a persona for him." That's not how that works and it's also not you. You are not the target market for your product and I know it's always really exciting when you talk to clients and they're like, "Well, I like this color."
Okay, but you, I'm not selling to you. I am selling to you because you're my client, but we're not selling your product to you. You're not the target market. I heard this great story about this one company that bought a billboard for this company outside of their headquarters so every day the CEO, when he drove to work, could see it and be like, "Yeah, our advertising is great." Like that's... I can't believe you spent money on that.
You're not your own target market. That's a really hard thing for a lot of people to get behind is that you're not selling to yourself. You're selling to these personas who are not you. Good personas also make sense to non-marketers. One of the challenges that you have is, for example, people who work heavily in SEO is if you talk to someone who's never worked in SEO and you say things like keyword research, and title tags, and metadata, AMP, and their eyes kind of glaze over and they don't really give a crap, right?
They're like, "Just get some links and I don't know, I want more Googles. Please get me more of the Googles." But instead, you can say to them, "Okay, so this is Mary and this is her motivations and this is why she's a good customer for you and we're going to reach Mary by doing this, this, this, this." They're like, "Oh, okay that sounds great. Here's a pot of money." right?
That's how that works so you're welcome. Personas really have two essential instruments that make them real. They're findable and they're measurable and what I mean by findable is that you have a way of targeting this persona and you have a way of targeting them very specifically. So if you think back to the example of Maria who likes hats and dogs, yeah, you could go on Facebook and say, "I want to advertise to everyone in Dublin who likes cats and dogs." and you'll probably get a sizable audience.
We always get a whole bunch of people who aren't quite the person you want to advertise to because it's not specific enough. So when you have a really specific persona, you can narrow it down to 50 people. We have one client whose persona is literally one person because one of their major audiences is the Canadian government.
So this is the minister who they want to make sure that they stay in the good books of so that is the persona. Usually, personas aren't real people, we made an exception in this case. You want to target that one specific person or those 10 specific people who are going to be so jazzed about what you have to sell, they're going to buy it immediately. Right, you want to target as precisely as you can.
And then measurable, in that you have a plan on how to segment and track that persona because without tracking, I mean, what are we doing in digital marketing, right? That's always our big selling point. It's not a billboard you can track it. Well, you should be able to track and segment each persona specifically and I'm going to get into some tactics about how to do that towards the end. Personas are really built from data, the scientific method. You have data, you build a hypothesis, you test the hypothesis, it's either right or wrong.
It's the same thing with personas. We all sit on top of this mountain of data for our marketing and we don't necessarily do a lot with it. So we really need to take that persona, that data that we have, and turn it into something and build it from that data. So Chatelaine, which is a women's magazine in Canada, did a segment called, "This is 40ish," and they interviewed a thousand Canadian women between the ages of 35 and 45, basically my demographic, and they asked them lots of questions including super easy ones like are you a feminist?
You know, everybody knows how to roll that off the tongue, right? Do you look good naked? They just redid it for this year and one of the questions was, do you think Justin Trudeau was attractive? I don't, do you guys know who Justin Trudeau is? Prime minister of Canada, okay, yeah. And so there's jokes about him just walking around shirtless all the time which apparently he does. So that was one of the questions.
I was only like 50/50 on that. I have a video now of...here are the answers to what makes you unique so you can see the big variety of responses. - [Woman 1] [inaudible] a lot of women that I know who can't outlast their kids and I can keep up with them. - [Woman 2]
First of all, my height. I'm huge. I would say it's probably my sense of humor. - [Woman 3] I like to walk through life with a I-don't-really-care attitude. -
[Woman 4] I'm a fighter. - [Woman 5] I'm bubbly. I'm a strong person, strong personality. -
[Woman 6] I had an eating disorder when I was in my teens and 20s. It was a really difficult experience I was really ashamed of, but now that I'm older I really understand what happened and it's something that I'm most grateful for. - [Woman 7] I think that people can depend on me for no bullshit. -
[Woman 8] People always assume that I'm married because I have two children, but my partner and I decided that marriage was not what we wanted to do. - [Woman 10] I had a son and he was born at 22 weeks gestation and he lived for three hours and then he passed away. So his birth and death in our life has really made our perspective on being parents and being a mom something special. -
[Woman 11] I think everybody is unique. Everybody's got a story, everybody's got different experiences, everybody's got... no two people could ever be the same.
- So now that you've seen that video, those people are no longer a demographic to you. They're not just women in Canada between the age of 35 and 45. Each one of them has their story, some of them really get you like the woman whose child passed away and other ones are more funny about how that woman is super tall, but that's what defines her.
That's what makes her unique. And so really, these personas they build empathy because no longer are these visitors just numbers on your website. They're real people and so that changes how you market to them. You're no longer thinking about, "Oh, visitor 10 why didn't you click the form you idiot."
You're thinking about, "Okay, visitor 10 didn't click the form because there was a really weird piece of content here and it didn't describe it well enough because this is the thing that they want to do and therefore we have to go back and revise it." It helps you build empathy with your audience instead of wondering why the heck they didn't do the thing you wanted them to do. So back in the olden days before the internet, and you would just buy a billboard, and you stick it on the highway, and 80,000 cars would drive by every day, and you hope that maybe somebody who drove past that billboard wanted to buy a flight.
A lot of clients still think in this 80,000-people-a-day billboard model, right? And so they're very concerned with volume. And one of the things that we have to say to clients when we first start working with them is, "Look, when you start working with us you may receive less traffic at first. Your traffic may go down. That's okay because you were getting a lot of crap traffic before."
You know, we have worked with clients who did that, you know, we're just going to blog for the sake of blogging thing and so they blog about all kinds of weird stuff, right? And then they start ranking for things that is not related to their business at all and so they get random traffic for this one post. We even did the same thing at Kick Point when we first started the company and one of our employees at the time blogged about like the worst 100 songs of all time and we were ranking really great for the worst 100 songs of all time.
And so we had all this traffic to this post that had literally nothing to do with what we did. So we ended up deleting it in the big content purge. But this is a hard thing for clients to see. It's like, "Oh, well, our content went down. I mean, our traffic went down." Of course it did because that was bad traffic and this is good traffic and that is a really important part of this education process.
Once you have better targeting, you don't need to worry about the number of cars driving past the billboard. You can just grab those 80 people who are ready to book a flight and say, "Here you go. Give me your money." Except a little bit nicer than that. What is your conversion rate on your site right now? Is it 3%, 5%, magical 10%? Do you look like a rock star? But that still means that if it's 3%, for example, you're still failing 97% of the people who come to your website.
It's still spray and pray. And so thinking about that 97%, think about them. Don't rest on the success of the 3%, but say, "What did I do wrong?How did I wrong these 97 people? The 97%. What can I do to make that experience better? How can I improve it for the next people who come along?"
And always be thinking about the people who didn't convert, and not in a I need to trick them better, this button color needs to be different sort of way. But were they the right persona? Did I not segment them correctly? And really the other thing too is people aren't users. I am going back to the idea of empathy. Stop calling your market users.
They're people and so user experience we call it people experience, I don't know, maybe, but the idea of users kind of removes yourself from the equation. It's just someone behind a computer as opposed to everyone on this audience, everyone on that video, me. I've done a lot of googling to get around Dublin last couple of days, I'm going to do a whole bunch more and I've got to say mobile experience has been interesting listening to this talk because it's every time you hit a website
[inaudible] and say, "Oh, why is not this yet? I'm just eating up data here." And it's interesting because coming from, you know, for example, a lot of travel in the U.S., all those sites are responsive. Come here and they are and they aren't and you think, soon that is really going to cause a problem for a lot of these businesses who do depend on tourists like me. Especially tourists who may not have brought a laptop with them, all they have is their phone.
How are you going to convert that person? Don't think of them as a user, think of them as a real person. So how do you build personas? Well, first off start with who are your best customers now? That's really the first question you need to ask. So get a list of the people who give you the most money, make you the most profit, buy the most profitable things, have referred business to you, the people who talk about you all the time on Twitter even though maybe they don't have a great Klout score, it doesn't matter they love you anyway, right, who likes every single one of your Facebook posts and Instagram pictures, who follows you on Snapchat.
Those are your best customers. Get them in a room, start to build a profile based on them and figure out what they do online. Where do they hang out and what can you gather from investigating them? So are people here familiar with FullContact? You guys heard of that tool? Okay, FullContact is the creepiest thing you'll ever use in your life.
So FullContact has an API, you put in someone's email address, and then it comes back and says this person is on Twitter. Here's their Twitter handle. This person is on Facebook. Here's their Facebook handle. They're on Linkedin, here you go. And so you take, for example, email list, everybody has email list, pop into FullContact, pay your $99, I think, a month and ta-dah, now you know everything about them and then you do a little bit of Excel wizardry and then you check out all their Twitter profiles and start to gather their interests from there.There's a product called Tags which allows you to pull that Twitter data and I can't go into all of that because obviously I only have this amount of time and not all the time in the world, but there are things that you can do once you know their social data to start to go through them and if you have a small enough data set you can even, for example, go manually through people's Facebook profiles because people who are not experts at computers leave it all hanging out all the time on Facebook for anybody to go and look at, right?
Like think about, you know, someone's uncle and they're always like playing games and memes. I'm thinking of my father-in-law too. He's always posting everything public all the time. Like, "Okay, Mike you're really good persona because I can go on your Facebook page and see everything that people may not know about you." And so if you're really thinking about, if you have like 10 best customers, take the time, go to their Facebook pages, see what they do, you know.
And the other thing too is ask them questions. Pick up the phone, which I know everybody loves talking on the phone, right? It's the millennials favorite thing to do, but pick up the phone and talk to them and don't just ask them, "How often do you use the internet on a daily basis?" Most people cannot give an accurate answer to that because they don't know, right?
It's like when we worked with a home builder client and we said to them, "Okay, so when people come to the show home to buy a new home in a suburb, how do they say that they found out about you?" And say, "Oh, signs." Well, because they saw a sign when they were driving up. They probably 80 radio ads until that point, but it's a sign they remember. It's the same thing too. They're going to remember maybe the day before that they went on Twitter a couple times, you know, but that's it.
They're not necessarily going to remember their regular internet usage. Instead ask them things like, "What news sources do you read? What makes you want to share something on social media? What compels you to feel like this is something worth sharing? What TV shows do you watch?Who are your favorite movie stars? What kind of music do you like?Who's your favorite artist? What's the last concert you went to?" Find out things about their personal life that can also help to drive what they do in the rest of their lives. "What do you at your job? Do you use a computer at your job? What kind of web browser do you use?"
Just that question right there can tell you a lot about someone. If they say, "Oh, I don't know. I click the big blue E,"then you know about how they can use a computer, right? And if they say, "Oh, I have Chrome and these are the 18 plugins that I use," like okay, I've got a different kind of person on my hands. That can really help you build a persona. Also, talk to your sales and support teams. A few of our clients now, the marketing people actually attend sales meetings as well as support team meetings on a regular basis and so they find out all sorts of interesting stuff when they, for example, complain about customers.
Like, okay, "Let's never market to that segment again." Because out of this you could build personas for people that you do want and also personas for people that you definitely do not want, right? So talk to them and really sales and support, they know your customers best. And if you have, say, a product that's installed talk to those people too. They deal with those customers every single day. You don't. You show to them every single day, you try to convince them every single day, but you don't go and talk to them in the same way that these teams do.
So go to meetings, bring them chocolate, you know, show up with a cake. They will love you and they will give you all sorts of information that you can then use to build these personas. And please don't do focus groups. I know it's a really easy thing to do like I just hired this focus group company and I'll ask a bunch of questions like, "How do you feel about this ad?" But there's always that one guy who's really noisy and completely dominates the conversation so at the end everyone's agreeing with that guy, right?
And so I know that's triggered by the geolocation and now they're making me agree even though they have a cookie for my previous visits. So like thinking about how is this like tracking me now? Now they know I'm here. It's little things too like thinking about sales and support teams. Facebook, when I opened up Facebook when I got here the globe had shifted so that Europe was in the center of the globe.
In North America, North America is in the center of the globe and it was just the tiny little thing. It's like somebody at some point talked to a support team and said, "Hey, this would make people feel more welcome if the globe shifted." It's little stuff like that, right? And I'm sure it wasn't a marketer who came up with that. It was somebody who talked to users on a regular basis. So back to building structure. Once you have all this information, you're going to have a ton of data.
Write it all out on Post-it notes, stick it up on the wall, start to group together the commonalities, and then you can build. okay, this is a persona based on this data and this is a persona based on this data. Start to build groups based on the information that you find. And really you know you've got a good group when you're able to answer this standard content marketing structure that we use.
I'm sure a lot of you also use with your clients. You know, "I am a blank, who wants to do blank, so I can blank." You know, "I am a tourist in Dublin who wants to find out information about when Dublin Castle is open so I can go check it out." And when you can start writing all these personas and you can start to write all these content formulas based on the personas, then you know you've got a good persona on your hands because the ideas just really start to flow.
What are the questions that they're going to have? What are the answers that I can give them? And then you know you've got something solid. Then you can say, "Okay, I got this persona down. Now I can move on to the next one." And remember too people do not just live online. We all have rich lives that don't involve the internet, maybe digital marketers a little bit less than other people, right?
But occasionally you do turn off your phone and do stuff, you know. Like right now, only, I think, half of you are paying attention to your phones less now that I said that. There is a study that was put out about the distribution of user's computer skills which was fantastic and also terrifying. So level three are people who know how to do all kinds of stuff on the internet, right?
They got their own browser installed, they maybe did a plugin, they know how to create folders and move stuff around. Basically, here in this room we are level three and at the teeniest tiniest little slice of this pie, level two are people who, you know, they've been around for a while, they've used a computer a few times. They might only know how to use one operating system, they can't really switch between Mac and PC, for example, they probably know how to create a folder which creating a folder in a folder system is actually a really difficult task for a lot of people and maybe they know how to save a file to that folder.
Basic stuff. They don't know how to do a formula in Excel, but they can open excel and type in stuff. That's medium. And then we have poor, terrible, and can't use computers at all which is more than half and poor are the people who click the big blue E to get on the internet. These are the people who fall for phishing scams. These are the people who save everything to their desktop, right?
That's level one. Below one is just like, "I don't even know how to turn on a computer and they type in all caps, right? And then can't use computers which is a big segment and so there's a tweet growing up from the Kick Point account with a link to the study. I really recommend that everybody reads it because when we passed it around the office everyone was like, "No, really?"
People are that bad on the internet? Yeah, they are. So what does that mean for how it impacts your, and I just said this, your user experience? Think about how you're going to personalize your audiences based on the skill level of their ability to use a computer. So if you can think to yourself, okay, so I know that I've got this persona and their skill level is poor, so I'm going to assume that they maybe don't know how to do this thing or if I show a pop up that's going to be the end of the world, right?
Thinking about how can I tailor this experience to the experience level of people who are not me and particularly with regards to stuff like mobile devices, right? Like everybody probably has a big beautiful computer that you use every day at your job, maybe a nice shiny Mac of some kind, right, a huge screen, but other people may never, as I said in the earlier presentation, some people may never access your site via desktop or a laptop.
They may only have a tablet and maybe it's like a tablet from four iPad versions ago that barely works, it's got this huge crack on the screen, right? Or they've got a really old cell phone. Maybe they have a iPhone 4, maybe they don't even know what they have. You ask them what cell phone they have, they're like, "I don't know, it has a touchscreen." right?
A lot of people can't necessarily identify what it is that they use and sometimes it's fun to ask people like what kind of phone do you have if they're not a really experienced computer user. People sometimes don't know they look at it they're like, "It's a Samsung, but I don't know what that means." And they don't know it means Android, right? It's just a Samsung, not the one that catches on fire, though, they say, right?
Okay, that's good. But the other thing too is also sometimes some of the best places where people hang out aren't Facebook, or Twitter, or Snapchat, or Instagram. Sometimes it's those old- school forums, right? Have you ever googled something to fix on your car? And there's always like some sort of Subaru enthusiast forum that's got like18 pages
[inaudible] type of coolant to put in your car, right? There's a huge segment of the population that lives on these forums and it looks like you just escaped back into 1998, but that's their experience using the internet. So don't snub it, don't be like, "Oh, this is ugly." People use it. People who aren't you, people you are trying to sell stuff to.
So really, check your biases when you're thinking about that. And are you social listening as well? This can be a really good tool to build personas. We use mention. For example, you just say anytime somebody mentions a keyword for our business, grab it, put it in the system, and then you check it later and say, "What are people saying about our industry? What are people saying about our business?"
You could use an Hootsuite as well with geography around the tweet so you put up a search in Hootsuite and say, "Everybody who says the word, 'mobile', for example, who lives within 20 kilometer radius of city." and just watch it and see what happens and see the kinds of stuff that gets put out there. So now you have all these personas, really at this point, they're still theories and you want to prove these theories with actual data.
So this is where you would go to your customer journey and think about, how does our customer journey match up with the persona that I've created? At what points in this customer journey will the persona be positively affected or negatively affected by the experience? Right, so thinking about, for example, this woman who wants to buy a new cell phone, she has this giant sack of money, it's clearly not a cheap cellphone, is she a sophisticated cell phone user?
What drives her to make these decisions? Is she one of those people who is a conspicuous consumer? Does she like showing off status items? What is it that makes her interested in buying a new device? She's already on a device. So does she need another one? Should we reach out to her on Twitter, for example?
Like what are the different things that we need to do with this persona to make them happy? And also make sure not to silo customer experience from lead experience. You know, cell phone companies are notorious for this, right? It's only...new customers only get the thousand gigs of data free, existing customers get two gigs free, right? All the time. I had an experience, I just got a new phone. I got a Moto Z, which I love, and I had to rage tweet at my phone provider to get the same kind of deal as a new customer and I've been with this phone provider for almost 20 years now and I've usually I can pull that and they're like, "Oh, yes, of course, you know, here's our platinum plus service" and it didn't work this time.
I was so mad and I finally did get it, but like I had to go to that point to get this deal. So now I feel a little less excited about this company. It's that kind of friction that can build up if you're not really understanding the persona of your customer and providing a different lead experience to a customer experience. So when you get started limit yourself to three to five personas.
More than that and really you're just splitting hairs at this point. You want to think about not overwhelming yourself. Don't start with 10 personas. It's way too many to try to track. For example, Buzz Feed has two personas that they market to. One of the personas is a woman who's recently out of school, university, maybe three to five years after graduation, feels like she's losing a little bit of touch with celebrity news, wants to keep up on that.
The other persona is that woman's mother and that's all they market to. That's it. That's all Buzz Feed cares about and you can see that in everything that they do. There's the goofy stuff and the serious stuff and all of it is tilted to that perspective. If Buzz Feed only needs two personas, you probably don't 10. And make sure that each persona has a story and a journey.
Those are the two vital parts a persona needs to have. And so by a story you're writing about their motivations and everything else, by the journey it's that customer journey that I talked about. What will be their journey with you? And that journey doesn't just end at the conversion or the sale, that journey continues on their experience with the organization.
Maybe you sell something they come back to it again and again, maybe it's something that they don't buy a lot like a house. What is that persona journey and how are you going to reflect that in the document that you write? Okay, so now that you have your personas, what are you going to do with it? So segmentation first off. There's a couple of ways to do some really interesting kind of creepy segmentation.
First off, UTM parameters, which really everyone should be using on a regular basis, but use the term or content fields to segment your personas and track it with a spreadsheet. So if you're running a Facebook ad, for example, to a really specific persona, toss it in the UTM parameters. If your users are level-one computer users they're not going to know that you use UTM parameter anyway, right?
They probably don't know what that URL is. So go for it, just put that in there. And if you are looking for a tracking spreadsheet, Annie Cushing has a really nice one and a link for that will be tweeted out as well and it's really helpful to track all the variables that you use over time because six months later you get like, "What I mean by segment A? Maybe don't call it that, but don't be too obvious with it.
And also using Google Tag Manager. Thinking about how you can tie together a set of triggers to confirm your theory about that persona. So let's say, for example, we know that if someone visits the Field of Flowers and then purchases, they're customer A, and we know that if somebody visits the lake, and the mountains, and the woods, and then they purchase, then they're customer B.
So how can you take those groupings based on actual site behavior, tie them into Google Tag Manager, and then you've got your persona segmented for you? If you don't know Google Tag Manager wizard be friends with one. They're very, very valuable. Or have one in your company. Right, so what else can you do? We all know the internet is super creepy we can track everything, right?
So what about remarketing? And not just remarketing like they came to the site, didn't buy so I'm going to show them an ad now. Let's say you ran an ad on Linkedin because you were able to segment some of the things, but not all the things about this person. Those Linkedin people got to this page no one else has visited this page. Now you remarket to people who visited that page based on, say, some Facebook attributes.
So take this audience and then segment out these things so you've got a smaller segment of people who visited originally from Linkedin and now you can start to say, "Okay, so they click this ad that means that they are in this Linkedin segment and there's this Facebook segment and now I know basically everything about their lives." So how can you use remarketing? And it's obviously only works if you have a lot of visitors to draw from.
Use social sign on. It's convenient for the customer, everybody hates making new passwords, and as a data mine for you. Have people here used Linkedin social sign on? Okay, you got to check it out. It's the best. There's a plugin for Wordpress for it and it gives you everything about their Linkedin profiles which is essentially everything and people use it because it's so easy.
Why would you not want that data? So look into Linkedin social sign on, thank me later. And call tracking and whisper messages. So if you are using call tracking, see if your call tracking provider does whisper messages, which if you're not familiar is something so you get a call tracking call, I pick up the phone to talk to the person it says, "ad words ad- new house" and then you can see this person clicked on an ad, you know, exciting kitchens or whatever it might be and so you can tilt your conversation to what that ad was.
Well, think about using this with parameters as well. So if you know what that persona is and use that UTM parameter to get them to come to this page, now they've got a tracking number now when they call your sales team sales team can pick up the phone and it will say persona is Maria and now your sales team knows the kind of person that they are and can also tilt their conversation that way and see, if it worked out well for them and then they can score that lead, you can be happy, right, and it's all good.
Really at the end of this what you want to have is this proof that these personas work. So you go through the process to build the personas, you test with data, you see if that [inaudible] reality. And persona data also leads to smarter marketing decisions, right? Imagine being able to say that Maria has a 40% higher conversion rate than the rest of our audience so we're going to spend all our money there, right?
Or persona B has tons of lead generation, but they're total crap to our service team so forget it, we're never marketing to those people again. Persona B is now in the "No" pile. This is what kind of data you get out of that and you know where to spend your budget and you can also stop wasting time on the wrong opportunities. You know, why bother with a link opportunity or content opportunity if you know it isn't hitting a good persona for you? Then you can make that decision and you're not just saying, "Well, it's not a great link because..." you can say it's not a great link because we don't want to target this guy named Bob, our persona Bob because he was kind of a jerk to our service team.
Okay, great. Now we know. So if you want to learn a little bit more about personas, Nathalie Nahai, she wrote a book called Webs of Influence,and the second edition is coming out, I believe, in February or March. It doesn't specifically talk about personas, but talks about psychology and really when you're thinking about personas this is what you're talking about. So I really recommend checking out Nathalie's book.
First edition is available now, second edition is coming out soon. So check that out when it comes out. Thank you.