Oli Gardner

About Oli Gardner

Unbounce Co-Founder Oli Gardner has seen more landing pages than anyone on the planet. His disdain for marketers who send campaign traffic to their homepage is legendary. A prolific webinar guest and writer, he speaks internationally about Conversion-Centered Design and Campaign Experience Optimization (CXO). Oli is on a mission to help marketers combine data and design to create high-converting and delightful marketing experiences.

In his Learn Inbound talk, Oli will explore how Data is all around us, which is both a good and bad thing. Good, because we need it. Bad, because there’s simply too much to know where and how to start using it. This is one of several reasons that marketing teams are currently dysfunctional.

Data-Driven Design (3D) is an actionable evidence-based framework that gives marketing teams (marketers, designers, & copywriters) accelerated access to the data they really need, coupled with a process for understanding how to use that data to make informed changes to the digital marketing experiences you’re creating today.

Key Takeaways

  • Use The 3D Playbook to narrow hundreds of sources of overwhelming data into the few you actually need.

  • Run multiple experiments to fuel your next project.
  • Use a collaborative process for marketing teams, designed to create high-performance digital experiences that solve real, observed customer pains.

Video Transcription

Man 1: Oi, Oli. Oli. Oli, Oli, Oli.

Oli: Hello? Who's talking to me right now?

Man 1: It's me.

Oli: Who's me?

Man 1: Your inner voice.

Oli: Oh, come on. This is not the time or the place. I'm trying to give a talk right now. What are you doing? What do you want?

Man 1: That can wait.

Oli: It can't wait. Like, I flew all the way from Vancouver to be here.

Man 1: Look at them. They're all sleepy from all that Guinness they drank at lunch.

Oli: Maybe so, but, like, why are you bugging me right now?

Man 1: I just took a look at What the hell is up with the homepage? It's completely different.

Oli: No, no, it's okay. We're doing a complete brand refresh.

Man 1: Oh dear. Just hearing that really makes me want to stick a javelin through my neck and repeatedly run through a narrow doorway.

Oli: What are you talking about? No, it's going to be awesome. It's a new concept called A Day in the Life of a Marketer. It's going to really help us speak to our audience better, which is what I should be doing right now if you weren't interrupting me constantly.

Man 1: Boring.

Oli: No, no, no, it's going to be great. We're going to have cinematic background video, parallax scrolling.

Man 1: Lame.

Oli: But we'll have a big promo slider so people can flip through...

Man 1: That sounds bloody awful.

Oli: No, but also we're going to have an explainer video.

Man 1: What impact is that going to have?

Oli: It's going to increase conversions by 20%, guaranteed.

Man 1: And how on earth do you know that?

Oli: I read a blog post by an expert.

Man 1: A blog post? You're such an idiot. You better be running a test on that.

Oli: Of course, I'm testing it. Who are you talking to right now?

Man 1: What if it doesn't win? Are you going to roll back to the old homepage?

Oli: Well, of course, no. Now, you know what, we put so much time and money in this. I want it on the homepage regardless.

Man 1: Are you serious? You sound like a dinosaur.

Oli: Shut up.

Man 1: You shut up.

Oli: Oh God, it's like this all day every day, yap, yap, yap.

Man 1: So how is the test going?

Oli: Well, it's losing. It's not doing very well.

Man 1: So much for your 20% guarantee. Clearly it doesn't work.

Oli: We need to find a way to make it work.

Man 1: Yes, but the data says it doesn't.

Oli: You know what, fuck data. And that's the theme of my talk today, not really. That was a conversation I had with myself a while ago, because we put an explainer video on our homepage, and we really knew it was going to do something special, right, it's going to communicate better, guaranteed to, you know, increase conversions.

But I wasn't angry at the data. I wasn't really angry with the result. I was annoyed because it didn't confirm our assumptions and our biases, then the team was really disappointed, because they were not given any data at the start of the project. So they were just making something, being creative, but it wasn't based on even a single piece of qualitative, quantitative, or even anecdotal evidence. So it was really frustrating for them.

And I sent a survey out. Some of you filled it in. Thank you for that. In this room, those who answered, 76% don't have enough data at the start of a project. That's terrible. We can't work like this. And that's kind of what I want to fix today.

So the explainer video, why did we do it? Well, we did it because everyone else was doing it, and that's not how we should be operating. We can't make our decisions based on what other people are doing or what the industry says is cool right now. Because, guaranteed, every single time there's a new design trend that comes along, it results in 400 blog posts explaining why you need an explainer video followed by 150 videos in the form of explainer videos explaining why you need an explainer video. Trends can be powerful.

This summer I decided to give one of our dogs a haircut. Ended up looking kind of like those guys, those hillbillies. I used a human thing, so, like, it was so bad. It went so close to the skin. We had to put sunscreen on him to stop him from getting burnt, poor little fucker.

Everything I talk about will be at this landing page. There's only two links there. One's on my slides, which doesn't work right now. I'll upload them after. And one to the process stuff I'm going to talk about today.

So data-driven design. What does data-driven actually mean? Well, I actually don't really like the term data-driven. I put it in my title, because there's three Ds in it, data-driven design, and I wanted to just call it 3D. It's not really why you should do it. I prefer data-informed design, and I think Talia Wolf says it best, "Be data-informed and customer-driven." That's a much better way of thinking about it.

So I've been doing a lot of research this year. Talked to, interviewed, and surveyed a lot of people in marketing teams, because I think marketing teams are dysfunctional, and I want to understand why, because I want to fix it.

So I talked to primarily marketers, designers, and copywriters. Now, two of these are not real, but he's one of our marketing directors, Cory. So we're going to give them three lives each, and we're going to find out what they think about one another, see what it's like lurking beneath the surface.

So we'll start with a designer. "Writers want me to start designing before I get the content," which is really common and really frustrating, because then you're kind of designing by numbers. You're copying trends. You're looking at your competition. We just make stuff up. It's a really frustrating way to work. She loses a life. Eighty-one percent of designers say that's what happens. There's no wonder there's tension.

"Writers don't get the SEO side of things," which makes sense. They all want to write great copy, but the marketer is like, "No, no, no, no, we have to be found," which, you know, can result in great pieces of writing, web copy or blog posts. But if nobody is finding them, if they're not relevant to what people are searching for, it doesn't work. We need to bridge that gap. She loses another life.

"Marketers have no understanding of customer behavior." Well, that's kind of hard to hear. But if a marketer is telling a designer something that isn't true, then you design for the wrong person.

"They're myopic and enjoy navel-gazing." Okay, so I had to look that up, because I don't really know what it means. Self-indulgent. Okay, so I gave an earlier version of this talk in Edinburgh a few months ago for Brian, wherever he is, at Turing Fest, and I was wearing this really posh suit. When I looked down, I saw my fly was open, and that's not the worst part. The worst part was my mom, dad, brother, and sister in the front row were staring at me. Kind of awkward. So I'll never forget the meaning of that.

Okay, "They don't respect design and think they know how it should be done," right? They're always standing over the back of people saying, "Oh, can you just make that pop?" and things like that. So he's now sad. And 90% of marketers said they're responsible for giving feedback to designers, but the scariest part of that is 87% think they're qualified to do it.

Man 1: Bullshit.

Oli: Total bullshit. It's not true at all. I've been doing this for 20 years on both sides, and I know that that's extreme overconfidence, and we have to change that perception. You can't speak to designers like that. I'm not trying to say they're sensitive. You can't say that. I mean, we can't talk to each other in any of these ways, and that's part of the problem. That's what I want to solve. That's why I've created a process to make marketing teams work better.

Now, quick hands up thing. Put your hand up if you're a designer. About six of you. So there's 400 people in here. So 394 of you are wrong. We're all designers. All a designer is... I mean, it might not be in your job title or description, but a designer is a problem solver, and we're all problem solvers. It's what we do every day. So we are all, in fact, designers.

And the best designer of all is this guy. He's, like, one of my greatest heroes. He's the best designer, the best optimizer. He can take any bad thing and fix it with what's in the room, like, "Oh, acid leak? Not a problem. Chocolate bar, boom." He's so cool. So I live my life like MacGyver.

This is our bathroom. Nicole, my fiancée, takes a lot of baths. And if you can see the shower curtain, when you're down like this, it's kind of annoying, you know? It bangs on your arm. It's like...and then it blocks some of the light. So how do you fix it? Bungee cord, right? That's classy as fuck. Looks like a posh hotel. It wasn't that hard. But look how nice it looks. Bath time's better. Design is all about empathy, understanding how someone else is feeling. It's not about just looking at what other people are doing and implementing that.

This is a very slow-going slide. These are design trends since the beginning of the web. There's a lot of them. Some years get crazier than others. The problem with these is they build over time. And when you think of, like, theme designers for WordPress or something, you're a new business, you just buy a theme to get started quickly.

The problem is theme designers are salespeople, and they put every single one of these things into these themes, because they want to have a big list of stuff. But it's a terrible thing, because they're bloated, they're slow, they have evil things, like scrolljacking, which if you've ever come across it, you know, it's you try and scroll and it runs away. It tries to do it itself. It's like the worst concept ever, and they're full of these things. It's really, really dangerous.

This is a Google Trends chart. I want to take you back in time a little bit. Red one is Pinot Noir. Blue is a different kind of wine. And you can see, in 2004 something changed. They crossed over and never looked back. Everything changed. So back then around that time I went to see a movie about wine. And, being a responsible adult, I snuck a couple of bottles of Pinot in my jacket.

So we're watching it. We're taking turns. It's my turn, so I'm like this. I'm pouring into a cup. Nope, nothing. Nope, nothing. Then there's a wine tasting scene. And a guy two rows in front of me goes, "This is amazing. I can smell the wine." Because I wasn't pouring it in the cup. I had the perfect angle for it to just around the neck and all over the floor, all over my feet. Just wine everywhere. And then this scene happens.

Miles: Do not sabotage me.

Jack: Aye-aye, Captain. You got it.

Miles: And if they want to drink Merlot, we're drinking Merlot.

Jack: No, if anybody orders Merlot, I'm leaving. I am not drinking any fucking Merlot.

Miles: Okay, okay. Relax, Miles.

Oli: That scene changed wine forever, because that's Merlot, and then that's when "Sideways" came out right there. It screwed it forever. I predicted it at the time. And sure enough, four years later, a news article about the "Sideways" effect. Trends can have enormous impact. That's why they're so dangerous.

I love this quote, "Only takes one tree to make a thousand matches, one match to burn a thousand trees." Great song by Stereophonics. He gets it. I made this slide at 2 a.m. I was like, "Why am I putting this in here?" And I think it's kind of cool, or ridiculous, or whatever. What a mullet.

This is a true fact. And I love to judge a book by its cover or a wine by its label. So I'll go into a wine store, and I'll go... Actually, I never bend down for the bottom shelf, but let's go middle shelf. I go, "Oh, it's cool. Oh, it's Merlot." I just put it back. Thirteen years I have not spent any money on that wine, which is scary.

All right, so one of the more recent trends happened at the end of 2016. It's called the Conversational Form, created by an agency in Copenhagen, and basically what it is is a little script you put on your page, and it takes a regular form and turns it into a chat like this. It's kind of cool. I saw it. I was like, "Oh, I have to try this out. I have to test it," because that's the biggest problem with design trends, nobody validates them. There's no experimentation. They just go, "Let's do this, because it looks awesome." And that impacts a lot of people, because they're not validators. So I want to do that.

So someone in the company, at Unbounce, hacked it onto one of our pages. I'm like, "Great, I'm going to try this." And I want to share my new process with you, and I'm going to run through it with that Conversational Form. So it's a simple six-step process, and I know when you say process, it's like, "Oh God, are we going to have to listen to a process?" I know that sounds boring, but I'm going to try and make it really exciting.

First step, you look at the playbook. And now this is an interactive lookup table where you choose the thing you're interested in, the page element you're interested in optimizing, and then it will look at all these data sources but narrow it down to the ones you should be paying attention to just for that. Because it's great that we have a lot of data, but it's also causing a lot of problems, because people get overwhelmed, and they just give up paying attention. So this will help narrow it down. It looks like this. It's a Google Sheet.

So along the top are all the different types of data, and then down the side are different things you might find on a page or different types of page, and there's notes all the way through it. And at the top there's an interactive menu. You can choose what you're interested in, and it will narrow it down for you. That's definitely going to fall off. Okay. So it's a cool way of just figuring out what you should be paying attention to instead of looking at everything at the same time.

Second part, you have to collect that data. Now, that sounds boring, too, but it's not. It's really exciting when know, that time where you...that's get in Hotjar or something, and you start collecting data, and you go, "Oh, it's coming in." It's like, "Oh, I'm going to learn something." It's kind of exciting, and especially if you let other people on the team see that, see where it comes from, what it looks like. Because usually it's just the marketer who looks at that, and then they give their version of it to the team, and it might not be the right way of interpreting it.

Again, there's an interactive sheet in there. So you choose the data type. It'll auto-search for you, and then it will give you the sample size you need and a bunch of notes about why you're collecting that and why that sample size is important. The tool you're going to use doesn't require setup, like putting a script somewhere, all that kind of stuff. And then up there you can add new rows. So everything the playbook said, you can start collecting all of these things. It's a great way of keeping track of what you're doing for the project.

Then you make observations. This is probably the most revealing part. If you work as a team and have your other team members looking at these recordings or these heatmaps, whatever it is, they'll start developing empathy for your customers, but, more importantly, almost, you'll start developing empathy for one another. I'll explain that more in a bit.

I got to Ireland on Sunday, and I have a couple of observations of my own. Observation number one, it's lovely here, okay? Observation number two, they're everywhere. I don't consider myself a tourist. I'm a photographer. So I went up to Giant's Causeway. And, you know, if you've been there, these basalt columns, there's 40,000 of them. There were probably two that didn't have a tourist on them. They're just everywhere.

And I'm trying to get this big panoramic shot, and I couldn't say, "Everybody get out of the way." I wanted that giant to come in just like bam, squash them all and kick them into the sea so I get my shot. I don't mind some of them except for that guy with the stupid glowing head. Totally ruins it. Anyway, I like it here.

So then there's another sheet for the observations. Again, you choose the data type you're looking at and where it came from. You give it an ID so it is referenceable. So this is Conversational Form, so CFOG123, whatever. And, as a team, you observe these things and write down all your notes, what's happening, what's good, what's bad, and you give it severity from one to five, five being the worst, right?

And, again, you can add more rows. So then you'd have all these observations that you make together in the same room. So these are the six that the playbook suggested we should look at for the Conversational Form, so we'll go through these a little bit.

Session recording. All right, so I was really excited to try this. I put it on the landing page, and I set up in Hotjar to do a session recording. I got this one five minutes after I launched it. This is slightly sped up. This guy's not having a very good day. It's like, "And an error happens," and he starts freaking out. He can't fix it. It was crazy. Then he refreshes the page and does it all over again. I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm ruining this guy's life. This is such a bad experience." I'm, like, feeling so bad.

But then Nicole sitting next to me is like, "He put his email address in. You should reach out to him." So I did. I wrote him an email. "Sorry. Bruce, I'm so sorry. It was awful. I was experimenting. Here's the content you were looking for. Again, really sorry."

Two minutes later, he replies saying the best way of owning up to an experienced problem he's ever seen in 25 years, much more likely to engage with Unbounce as a brand. So terrible experience turned into something wonderful. Then I fixed the bugs and relaunched it. But if I didn't have that session recording, thousands of people would've gone through that experience.

Look at it on a phone, right? So this is one of the team exercises we did.

Anara: I'm finding it a little bit annoying that every time I need to type, keyboard opens, and so all the information goes up. So I need to scroll down, scroll up, scroll down to read and then...

Oli: So what Anara is saying is when you get to the entry field, you type in it, the keyword comes up, pushing the question away. So you don't know what you're answering. So you're just chasing up and down all the time. It's terrible. So I just turned it off on mobile entirely, because it was terrible. This was severity five for sure.

Then a usability test. Lots of people are scared of doing this. They're like, "Oh, it's like too much work. I have to pay $100 per person and have someone recruit them." It doesn't have to be that way. I Slacked 10 people around the office, said, "Hey, can I use you for two minutes to do a usability test?" People were like, "Yeah, that's cool. I want to be involved," because people love being involved. And that's how you create a culture of optimization, of MacGyvering. So it's a good way. Just ask people to be involved.

Anara: Although the three dots kind of represent, like, okay, am I typing or is somebody else typing.

Oli: "Am I typing?" Well, your fingers are nowhere near the keyboard, so probably not. But this was just an animation, but it makes you think, because of what we're used to, that someone else is typing. So you could sit there forever. It's just like, "Boy, they're typing an awful lot right now." Here's another one.

Anara: I guess I could check it out now. Okay, I can't click on what my first name is. Oh...

Oli: Because it's such a new interaction method, she's clicking on the first question. It's not what you should do, but, like, that's an interpretation of how it might work. So then I looked at a heatmap, and 12% of people are doing exactly that. We have to solve that problem.

And, finally, I looked at the leads that we were getting from this, 150% increase in fake leads, like fake email addresses. And it's not really a surprise, because people may think, "Oh, it's a chatbot. I don't really feel comfortable giving my email address."

Speaking of spam and fake emails, go back in time. You all remember these, right? It was the first interruptive device on the web in '97. Now, this is one of the exceptions where things got better. In 2007, a decade later, a group of people did the reCAPTCHA thing, and then Google bought them two years later, where the only difference is now you're helping digitize old textbooks that machines couldn't read. So, you know, you're crowdsourcing, doing good for people, and it's great successability, right? We need these old things to come to the digital age, but not all of them.

There are a few exceptions that I don't think should be digitized. They should probably be burned. Here are a few examples. That's not what I was doing with Scrappy. I promise I did not keep his hair. It's a thing. Look at that, man. "Unexpected Gifts from the Animals of Africa," not cool. We don't need that.

Okay, so at the end of this you have all your observations. So you have this little great catalog of observations and all this information with this severity. Instead of, you know, marketing, just saying like, "Do this," or whatever, you have some actual team collaborative produced work.

So then, four, assign micrometrics. Now, this is a more nuanced way of looking at optimization. People focus too much on conversion rate, and the problem with that is when you run a test, if it wins, great, promote it, if it loses, throw it away. But the majority of tests, 90% of A/B tests, flatline. Nothing happens. You can't beat it.

So what do you do? You go, "Let's just keep what we had," or you say, "Well, I like the new one. It represents more of us. It's more up-to-date. So we'll put that one live," because you think it doesn't matter. It does matter, because you have to look deeper than that into what I call micrometrics.

So, as an example, like, what are they? It's all about... When you have those observations of these problems, a micrometric is a measurement of your ability to change on-page behavior to influence the impact the observation had to try and fix it. So, as an example, if this is your page, people can navigate with that. You might look at a heatmap. Your micrometric might be the number of people who click the features thing, because you're identified as a very high-value page, okay? So if that's something important to your business, that's a micrometric.

What about if you have one of these, you know, promo slider things? How many slides are viewed? That's a micrometric, because you might want all of them, because they're important, and the number of clicks on different CTAs or something. If you have a block of text, you might do a usability test, or a five-second test, or just an interview with people and ask what they can recall. That might be the micrometric there.

You have a live chat. It might be the number or percentage of crappy, offensive things they put in because nobody likes them, right? If you look at all these things, then you can try and design an experience to fix them. With a form, many of them. Errors, which field is abandoned, and then number of fake or professional emails. By professional, I mean, not a Gmail. There's a big difference in those types of email address, right?

So we've got these. Some you're just going to fix. It's a bug. Some you'll do nothing. It's like, "Oh, we saw that. Doesn't really matter." And the serious ones you assign a micrometric, and then you try and use design to influence those things and make them better. That's the team mission now. Once you've done that, they have to come up with design solutions to fix that problem. It's a much better way of looking at it instead of, "We need to improve the performance of the page." Now, we actually have a focus of what we're trying to change, which is the design phase.

Now, this is kind of a variant of Google's Crazy 8's, which is part of their Sprint model, where you have your thing you're trying to change, one of these micrometrics. And, everyone in the room, this is like pen and paper stuff. You get one minute. I've got four instead of eight. Eight is a bit too many. One minute on each.

So you sketch a solution, and then after a minute you have to do another one, but it has to be different. So this inspires innovation, because you can't... This is the one you were always going to do, then you have to change. It's a brilliant way of innovating.

So what you might come up with is, well, we need bigger underpants. That's a solution to one of these problems. Or some toilet humor, because we all love shit jokes. Very meta. Pandas nappies. I had to change it from diapers. Because pandas, like bacon, are awesome. Because we have to be unique in business, maybe you need a snowflake.

So this is the way of doing...four different ways of solving this problem. But if you don't think like that, and you saw all these observations, maybe you just want to do one giant sketch that just solves all of them at once. That's okay, too, if that's the way your mind works.

So then you have all of these sketches that you can then give to your designer, actually. So these are marketer, copywriter, and designer. I got Cory from before, sad Cory. I emailed him last night. I'm like, "Hey, can you take photos of the things from the thing right on my desk?" So he sends me these, and I said, "Well, where's the fourth, because I did it, too?"

"Okay, important point." This is where the empathy within the team comes. Because if you see someone else the way... Because when you do this, you then present to everybody, "Here are my four ideas." And you get to see, "Oh my God, they're so good at that. I never would've thought about that." And you develop more respect and empathy for their roles and how they work, and then it just brings your team closer together.

So I asked Cory for the fourth one. That was what he sent me, like, in the middle of the night. Thanks, Cory. Still sad, clearly.

So then you have these. Then you can give these to a designer. They can go away and work on a new design based on what you all saw, the decisions you all made together, and it's just way better, because you don't have then a designer presenting their work, and you go, "That's not what I wanted," or, "No, no." Because, you know, you're all in it together, and you're on the same page. In this case, from that to that, because all we were doing is trying to fix the form. So nothing else was different. And then you label them with all of those IDs so you have a reference why you did everything.

Okay, finally, and then you have to run a test to see if your design decisions are influencing on-page behavior. All right, so what do we do? Had those three missions. Percentage of people clicking the first question went down by 47%. The way we did that was, because this is a different-looking thing from a form, I changed the entry field to be bright orange. Made it look like a button so people are drawn to it, and it says, "Please type your response here." Changed their behavior by guiding them to where they needed to work.

Fake emails. Okay, that went down by 37%. The way we did that was, instead of saying on the form, "What's your work email address?" we changed it to, "Which email address would you like us to send the course link to?" So it was for a landing page course. Now, people are like, "Oh, I have to put a real email in, because they're going to send it to me." That's not actually what happened. We just pushed them straight through, but I was trying to see if I could change behavior.

And then personal email addresses. I want pro email addresses. I don't want Gmail, because when... Well, I did this research a couple years ago. Just by changing these words, work and business, you get more pro emails. Then when you're doing your email marketing, you know it's going to them in the office when they're thinking about work. It's a much better way of doing email marketing. And that went up as well.

And the conversion rate didn't change. But that's okay, because now I know that this page is better, because it solved these problems. It's getting me better leads, and I've not got confused people doing the wrong thing.

Okay, I want to actually fix the page, too. We've just done the form. That was very pure. But I wanted to... So I went back and looked at all of the observations, all of the feedback to see if I can do a more radical test. So some people said, "The iPad makes it look like a book." It's not an eBook. It's a course. "How many questions?" Because it's a chat, you're like, "Is this going to be all day?" Because if it's a form, you know, "Oh, it's only four." So I wrote on there, "Only 4 questions."

"Too much text everywhere." This is not me. Someone else said, "You look trustworthy." So I moved myself up, took away all the text, said there's only four questions, and took away the iPad. And that is up by 8%. So a more radical redesign based on all of that, but it started with the micrometrics.

And if you're thinking, "Well, I don't just want to think about this small page element." That's okay, because when you do it, you'll learn about the rest of the page in the process.

All right, back to sad Cory. I asked him when I was putting this talk together, he was on the team, "You remember why we did this?" He's like, "Well, we made a bunch of shit up, and we started because we thought we needed one, not because anyone, any of our customers, even hinted at the fact that it might be needed."

All right, so I'm going to show you a little bit of this terrible video, and I'm going to show some annotations on it just to kind of talk about it a little bit.

Man 2: Every marketing campaign needs a landing page. We need them often, and we need them fast. I could use some help from design, but she's in the middle of a big project. Okay, and I'll need a developer to actually code the page for me. Our developers are busy, and building a landing page is not at the top of their list. That's how getting landing pages built used to be. Now, I use Unbounce. With the Unbounce landing page builder, I can start with a template, or I can build my landing page.

Oli: It goes on and on and on. We universally hated this video, and nobody said it at the time. We were so proud of it. That guy was so annoying. He has to say Salesforce later on in it for integrations, and he goes, "Salesforce." And I'm like, "Shut up." But we couldn't do another take, because in every other take he got Unbounce wrong. He was like, "Unbounce." He was just a terrible actor. But we didn't talk about it at the time. Everyone was frustrated with this thing, because we didn't do it property.

This is a Venn diagram of marketing team frustration. The biggest conflict is marketers and designers. It's a lot of frustration going back that we saw at the start. But we can fix this if we use a process like data-driven design so that we understand one another better on what's, you know, actually good about the way we work.

So the beginning was negative, frustration, so I did some more research. I reached out to people and asked a different question. I said, "What's awesome about working with a marketer, or a designer, or a copywriter?" These are the responses. First, marketers talking about designers. "Magic came up a lot, because designers do magical things. They can take nothing and turn it into something. It's kind of cool. Superpowers." So much positivity in this kind of underneath the surface.

How about the other side, designers talking about marketers. "They're enthusiastic and motivated." Don't you love being referred to that way? "Full of ideas."

How about designers talking about copywriters? "They're intelligent." Still got some work on that relationship, I think. And then finally, "They're our symbiotic organism. We'd die without them."

So this is some special stuff that, if we can just make people work together properly, that's the way we'll feel instead of all that frustration. You won't have people leaving, because you only hear that frustration in exit interviews when someone's opening up about why they hate working for you.

Data-driven design leads to data-driven empathy, which leads to data-driven results.

Thank you for listening. There's that link again. Oh, I need do, like, a three-second video. I always forget to do this. Can we get lights on everyone, please? Here we go. Okay, so what I need from you is when I count to three, if you can all wave your arms. I love embarrassing my fiancée. So if you can just say, "Hello, Nicole," and I'll put it everywhere. So one, two, three.

Audience: Hey, Nicole.

Oli: Thank you.

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